AVIARY TRANSCRIPTION

Ed Mezvinsky interview

https://iastate.aviaryplatform.com/r/mk6542kw98
Media File: MS0274_mezvinsky_interview
Transcription File: MS0274_mezvinsky_interview.vtt
Description: 
Plain Text Exported From Aviary: 2024-09-03T16:59:20


TRANSCRIPTION BEGIN

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And I'll just ask you the questions and the very

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informal, because it'll all be edited, you know.

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Sure. I realize how so. And I want to just to

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start kind of in your own words, it's probably the

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toughest question, but just a synopsis of a minute

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or less of what to you. Watergate was what was

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what are you going to tell somebody in a minute or

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less? Here's what Watergate was from your

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perspective. What was that? Well, from from our

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perspective and from the committee's role, we had

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to in a sense, it was a combination of putting the

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presidency on trial. And it was the president

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trying to we had to decide whether or not under

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our Constitution, this one check of the abuse of

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power, the abuse of office, whether this one check

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that the framers of our Constitution laid out,

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which they never expected probably to ever happen,

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whether that. Check was in play and whether the

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presidency was on trial, what we didn't realize at

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the same time the presidency was on trial. The

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Congress was on trial because the Congress had to

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make a decision which was momentous, which

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affected the country, which hadn't been faced for

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since Johnson's time. And that was President

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Johnson after Lincoln. Talk about your committee.

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You told an interesting story yesterday about how

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in the beginning you weren't going to vote for

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impeachment, just kind of when when right first

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got together. What what was the dealings? What

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were the things that were going on? Well, when you

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grew up in Iowa, which I did, and I was the son of

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immigrants, we prided ourselves in our country.

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You know, we were proud of our country, proud of

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our president. We may not have agreed with

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everything the president said. So that's what I

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grew up with. I grew up with that in Ames. We

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listened to the presidents on the radio there, not

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as much television. And it and it gave us a sense

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of pride. And then. Then that period where I go to

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Congress, and just because I was a different party

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from Nixon and I had met Nixon at the White House

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when we got soon sworn sworn in, it wasn't enough

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just because we differed with him on policy or

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certain issues to to to vote for the impeachment.

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So that's really what I walked into when I came

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into and sort of thought about this was viewed as

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a person coming from the Midwest with this pride

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of our institution, the presidency. That's what I

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started with when we first began those those

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hearings. And who was it? You said in the first

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few meetings, was it Conyers or. Well, yeah, there

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were there were two two members. One was John

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Conyers, who's still in Congress right now. He's

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an African-American from Detroit and John Conyers.

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And there was a father, a father priest whose

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Father Drinan from Boston. And we would get

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together at the beginning and to decide whether or

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not we should proceed. And they initiated the

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first resolution which followed the Saturday night

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massacre of of Archibald Cox, which was the

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special prosecutor. And at that first caucus, I

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remember them saying to me, and I'm this this

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fellow from Iowa, this freshman, this new member,

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Amos Vronsky, don't you know? You know, we have no

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choice. He's going to be impeached. And I said,

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What do you mean he's going to be impeached? We

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you know, just because we're of a different party.

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And so that started the process. And little did I

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realize that as we progress that the evidence

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would be so overwhelming. What was the pressure

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like for you guys? Well, the pressure was was it

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was pretty unusual when I got elected. The name is

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Venky was not a household name. Look, I came here

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in this country. My father came from Russia, my

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mother from Poland. Mezvinsky was not just the

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household name. It took a long time for people to

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recognize the name. We did a few unusual spots,

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commercials that made people laugh. So I would go

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to parades and I during the campaign and people

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were very open and friendly and they would laugh

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because they would be quick about we would make a

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mention of the fact they couldn't pronounce the

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name Mezvinsky and I. And so that's that's really

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what I started with. And by the time the

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impeachment process continued and the more it

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continued and the more that we had groups that

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were defending the president no matter what. And

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it was very strong and it was vehement that when I

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would come home to some of these same parades,

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some of the small towns, lo and behold, people

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were throwing stones at me yelling. I was told to

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be very careful and you may be threatened. You may

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be hurt. Just a totally different atmosphere

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because of this vehement contrast between those

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that defended the president, no matter what and

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those that felt that the presidency was on trial,

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that this was an abuse of trust and that we had to

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proceed. So it was it was significantly different

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from when I first got elected. Talk a little bit

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about it. This is off the subject of Watergate,

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but about your campaign that kept the campaign

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spot that you talked about, right? Sure. Well, I

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started the greatest problem you have, especially

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when you're up against the person that's well

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known. And this happens in today's political

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environment. You have to get yourself known before

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anything. So I had to figure out, well, what do we

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do to get the name? Is Alinsky known? And

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fortunately, I had a very good friend. I had a

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friend became friendly with a a person that that

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was that was good at taking unusual issues. He

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took the unusual campaign of of of the Goldwater

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Johnson campaign and the little girl picking

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petals and that one spot with the bomb blowing up

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in the background. And so I talked to Tony, whose

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name was Tony, and I said to Tony, what should we

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do? Well, Tony did this unusual spot where he had

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buttons and the buttons would come on the screen

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with the name is Venky and different people. The

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voiceover would be mispronouncing Mezvinsky and

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they would go with him, you know, and and

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different people would do it. And then at the end,

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the spot would say, you may not be able to

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pronounce Edmands. His name, but you knew what he

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stood for? Well, we hadn't yet said what what we

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actually stood for, but it did the trick because

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after that spot, we would go to the small towns

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and the parades and people would wave and they'd

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smile. And we knew that we crossed the bridge. The

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name had been known and they would laugh and and

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we could talk about the actual issues of the

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campaign. How did you end up on the Judiciary

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Committee? Well, I ended up on the Judiciary

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Committee in those days. You had to you had to get

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the blessing of one committee, which was the Ways

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and Means Committee of the Congress, and in

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particular the chairman. And we had an unusual

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request. The request was I wanted to get on the

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Judiciary Committee because I was concerned about

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what was happening in our country and with

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agriculture, where farms were were going away and

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there were compressing it. And so we we flew with

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another member of Congress down to see the

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chairman of the Ways and Means Committee, and his

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name was Wilbur Mills, brilliant man on tax. And I

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came in and we we landed. And as we landed, all of

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a sudden this this jet pulled up and out popped

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Oral Roberts, who was well known, and he said, hey,

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hey, boys, where are you going? And said, we're

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going to go see the chairman. And so he said, well,

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follow me, come with me. We went to the building

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that was named after the chairman and we waited

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and as we waited in the room, outworked Mike

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Wallace from 60 Minutes, was doing an interview.

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And so both myself and another member from from

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Missouri who was a farmer, who raised who raised

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Charly Bulls, we went in and we made our pitch at

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the same time. And what was really ironic is at

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the same time, I asked to be on the Judiciary

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Committee. The chairman said, well, you know, I

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just got a call from the president. He has a

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candidate. And, you know, I have to respect the

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president. And the candidate was a woman that I

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later served with on the committee, African

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American, a wonderful woman by the name of Barbara

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Jordan who who really made a mark in Congress. And

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we became dear friends. And then later I asked the

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chairman of the Judiciary Committee through Tony,

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and was able to get on the committee. But it was

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it wasn't easy getting on the committee, but it

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was. And little did I know that when I got on the

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committee that we would face the Watergate issue,

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the impeachment. And we also had to face the

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resignation of a vice president. And at that time,

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that same member of Congress, John Conyers, when

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when we were weighing that while Nixon was still

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in before the impeachment issue, it was John

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Conyers again who said to me, look, Mezvinsky, we

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can't support these appointments by the president

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because he's going to be impeached. And I looked

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at him as if he was in another another world. But

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little did we know that that the events and the

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and the facts would would be carried on and let

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alone did. We had no idea that there would be

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tapes that we would listen to. And the impact of

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those tapes, which probably no president now is

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ever going to have in the White House again,

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really was the was the crushing blow. And when I

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heard the tapes and had to make that decision,

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that's that's really what was a major factor in

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terms of of ultimately deciding to vote. What was

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it about the tapes that the tapes were? The tapes

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were in the confines of the White House? It was

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there was a member that was counsel to the

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president by name and John Dean, and he testified

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about what went on in the White House. But but we

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actually heard it on tape and we heard the

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president's comments about about what he thought

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about the president, about about certain people he

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had on a friends list and he had an enemies list.

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And if you weren't a good guy. Or if you weren't a

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defender of this presidency, you could end up on

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the enemies list. You could have your taxes

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audited. You can have all kinds of things. And we

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as members and I was warned as we went into the

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hearings that, look, Mezvinsky, you better be

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careful. You know, you may have a good project for

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for the district, but if you're viewed as being

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questionable that project, you can kiss it goodbye.

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The presidency will not support it. So so we heard

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that. And then and then he would talk about people,

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which was eerie. I mean, I grew up with the impact

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of the Holocaust and people some devastating

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comments. And it was almost like it was an eerie

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experience. You felt you felt as if there was

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something wrong, that there was something eerie

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and suspenseful and and not right about the

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comments. And one day he would make a comment

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about a person and make jokes about the person and

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even some racial remarks. And then the next day,

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the same person or some other person would be

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nominated to be on the Supreme Court. So, I mean,

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it was very, very unusual. And and also the whole

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issue, which the tapes ultimately came back to the

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Supreme Court was the cover up and that showed up

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on the tapes. And that part of the papers that

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I've donated come out, I mean, which is very

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unusual as closed session. And so, unfortunately,

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the president was aware of events that were taking

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place. And it's the classic case. Sometimes the

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cover up is worse than the actual event itself.

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And so when the case went to the Supreme Court and

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the tapes came out, then it was overwhelming. We

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had Republican support as well as Democratic

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support. But after that, that was the time that

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members of his own party. Went to the White House

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and said, Mr President, the committee has voted

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and the president says, well, how many votes in

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the Senate? And they said overwhelming support.

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And that's when the suggestion was, look, you

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better resign. And, you know, the only other

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emotional moment. They came to me was that I felt

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sad when we had to vote. It was very emotional

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because I didn't want to impeach the president, I

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didn't want to remove a president. I didn't want

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to acknowledge the abuse of office. And it was

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really a sad moment. And we talked among ourselves,

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including the Barbara Jordan and the other people

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and the chairman Rodino, that it was a sad moment,

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but yet it was probably one of the finest hours

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for Congress. Later, we discovered it took that.

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And then when Nixon had to make. He made his

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resignation speech in the White House and he

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talked about it and I was then driving to the Hill,

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this was after the hearings and everything. I

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literally pulled off the road and cried because I

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felt what it did to our country. But yet, on the

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other hand. It was. As I indicated, Congress on

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trial, it was the test and it probably, as I said,

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came out to perhaps be one of the finest hours of

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Congress to be able to take a very difficult test,

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which was bipartisan. It wasn't partisan. It had

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the support of people from Iowa, as well as those

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that were way ahead of us at the very beginning.

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You talk about it being one of the finest hours, I

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agree with that, and as you look back at how

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history has treated Congress or just overall that

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moment, how do you feel? Well, that moment was

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quite a moment because it was a test. I mean, we

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had demonstrations and protests and threats and

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members from states like Alabama. I mean, they

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were really under the attack, had strong support

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with the George Wallace environment and that

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strong support. There were so. The members really

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took a position that wasn't partisan, we are you

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know, today is is a very partisan environment,

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whether you're on the left or the right or

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wherever. We're seeing that on legislation that

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just recently came up, whether it's guns or

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whether it's immigration or the budget or whatever,

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this this was an issue where it didn't become

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partisan. You didn't have to put your finger in

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the air to see which way the political winds were

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going. So the members really stood up, weighed the

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evidence. And impeachment is not only a legal

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decision, but it's it's a combination of legal and

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political. And the members realized that they had

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to take this position. They had a very good vice

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president that came out of Congress, which was

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Gerald Ford. So it was it it was a time when there

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wasn't deadlock like like we're seeing today is

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you look at. When you first. Heard about these

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accusations to go all the way back to the

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beginning. Did you have any idea it would end up

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being whatever? No, it's a matter of fact, is

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interesting. The campaign was 19, which was at the

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same time that Nixon was running and Watergate

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appeared. You know, the break-In took place in the

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midst of the campaign summer and The Washington

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Post, you know, some of the press was point

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pointed that out. They didn't really go into

[00:17:35]
everything. There was the case was still pretty

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much deadlocked. We didn't have a special

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prosecutor. And I remember on a rally we had and

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the Democratic nominee for president was George

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McGovern. And we came together and he he talked

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and we sat on the stage. There was there was

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Harold Hughes, who was then there. And I was there

[00:18:01]
on behalf of the district. And and the issue was

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mentioned. But it was just sort of in passing. The

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bigger issues were, of course, the Vietnam War,

[00:18:12]
what was going on and so forth. Watergate was was

[00:18:15]
an undercurrent, but it didn't have the attention.

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It didn't have the exposure, didn't have a special

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prosecutor, didn't have somebody that was fired,

[00:18:23]
all the events that took place later. So it did

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come up and we heard it. We thought about it, but

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it was unheard of that. What happened with the

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money and the amount of money and and the taxes

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and everything that was involved in the use of the

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CIA and the FBI, all of these institutions of our

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government that we we learned to respect and we

[00:18:52]
have to understand about, little did we know then

[00:18:57]
as I was, I was just a naive I wasn't 100 percent

[00:19:02]
naive, but I certainly didn't think that Watergate

[00:19:05]
would result in the president. Ultimately

[00:19:09]
resigning, let alone what I hear, White House

[00:19:13]
discussions on tape that were so. As I said, so

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devastating, so. So against everything I was

[00:19:23]
brought up with in the Midwest and human rights

[00:19:27]
and respect for the individual in the and it just

[00:19:32]
it just was overwhelming and it was and in a way,

[00:19:36]
you felt you felt sorry for Nixon because there

[00:19:39]
was parts of what he did and what he did in China

[00:19:42]
and and the other aspects. And he was a smart,

[00:19:46]
brilliant man. I think the paranoia and what

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happened with the people around him and it's the

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classic case, the people around you may advise you

[00:19:56]
a certain way. And and unfortunately, he got

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caught up in that and and wasn't able to cut the

[00:20:03]
cord. Also, he wasn't able to admit his mistakes

[00:20:09]
if he would have been able to have gone before the

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camera and said, look. I'm sorry events happened

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that were not right, it was wrong and I was wrong,

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and I, I asked the American public for forgiveness

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and I still want to be your president. I think our

[00:20:31]
public is a forgiving kind of public and the voter

[00:20:36]
would have accepted that and I think it would have

[00:20:38]
been very difficult to proceed. I think that

[00:20:42]
argument would have been hard. He could have

[00:20:44]
acknowledged what happened and I think it would

[00:20:49]
have been taken on its face and perhaps would have

[00:20:53]
changed the ultimate outcome. Now, my

[00:20:56]
understanding, if I heard this right, you say you

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were the 20th vote. Yeah, I it just happened when

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you vote. There were articles of impeachment. And

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and when you vote for the first articles, which

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was the abuse of office and the abuse of trust,

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you go down the line each each member the votes

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and you have to have the majority vote. And I was

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since I was a new member, came down the line. And

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so by the time it came to my vote and I had to

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raise my hand and say I that was the that was the

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deciding vote to have the impeachment article pass.

[00:21:40]
And and then there were two other articles after

[00:21:42]
that. But yeah, little did I know that here being

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born and raised in Ames, Iowa, and that I would

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end up alone being involved in that proceeding.

[00:21:54]
Historic, but also having to to be that deciding

[00:21:59]
vote at that particular time. What what do you

[00:22:04]
hope people get out of these papers and releasing

[00:22:06]
the papers, why did you decide to do it now and

[00:22:08]
just. Sure. Well, I decided to do it. Because it

[00:22:15]
should be the papers should be available for the

[00:22:18]
public and for the researchers to sort of know

[00:22:21]
what what we went through, the history of this

[00:22:24]
also maybe as a lesson as to perhaps how

[00:22:28]
government. Can run, whether you're a partisan on

[00:22:33]
one side or the other, that there comes a time

[00:22:35]
when you know the country, you have to face issues

[00:22:39]
and you have to come together as a people to deal

[00:22:43]
with with volatile issues. Yes. That are emotional.

[00:22:47]
But yet you expect your government and your

[00:22:50]
representatives to sort of be to be able to do

[00:22:54]
that, to take those positions. So the papers, I

[00:22:57]
think, will be open for all to see. They can they

[00:23:00]
can they can not only look at the papers and have

[00:23:05]
access to what went on in that period. They'll get

[00:23:08]
a little flavor of how the public and the press

[00:23:11]
reacted and hope that we don't No. One, that the

[00:23:15]
positive side is good, but then we hope we don't

[00:23:18]
have to go through that again. We hope that we

[00:23:20]
don't have to have enemies lists. We hope we don't

[00:23:23]
have to have, you know, public officials that that

[00:23:28]
not only embarrass the trust, but abuse the public

[00:23:31]
trust that the founders of our country, little did

[00:23:35]
they realize at the time what happened the way

[00:23:37]
they did. Now, I don't believe we'll have tape

[00:23:41]
recordings to to use in the future, but I do

[00:23:46]
believe that historically it's a critical period

[00:23:51]
and it won't soon be forgotten. Maybe all the

[00:23:55]
nuances and Watergate may not be quite the same,

[00:23:59]
but I think the import of it is important. And

[00:24:02]
also, I wanted to bring it back to Iowa. I wanted

[00:24:06]
to see the home roots, you know, to show that I'm

[00:24:10]
grateful for the experience. I'm grateful for

[00:24:15]
having the opportunity. And I'm grateful that, you

[00:24:18]
know, to be raised in this environment which which

[00:24:21]
gave me and others, even the Republican across the

[00:24:27]
river who represented represented Rock Island and

[00:24:30]
Moline, Tom Railsback, a Republican, we were close.

[00:24:34]
He voted for the same articles that I did. It

[00:24:39]
really showed that the institutions of government

[00:24:41]
can work and what the founders really intended to

[00:24:45]
do, even though you may have incredibly strong

[00:24:48]
arguments on the other side. So I hope the papers

[00:24:52]
will bring out perhaps what can be done rather

[00:24:56]
than what we're witnessing perhaps on the front

[00:25:00]
pages and on television today. We didn't have

[00:25:02]
cable. We didn't have a lot of the the we had we

[00:25:07]
had TV, but nothing like we had today. Any other

[00:25:10]
stories about the Judiciary Committee that that

[00:25:13]
you want to share on just overall how you think?

[00:25:17]
Well, what was happened? We also had a chairman

[00:25:21]
who is who who is a new chairman. Very interesting

[00:25:24]
and little vignettes we would experience during

[00:25:31]
that. We he he tried to keep us on the path of

[00:25:36]
being

[00:25:38]
more nonpartisan and partisan. And he did that.

[00:25:42]
And he had and he and we worked with the other

[00:25:44]
side. We had we had a minority leader. And so we

[00:25:48]
work with the other side.

[00:25:51]
We had staff people that were very supportive. We

[00:25:56]
took a a minority counsel. His name was Gener. He

[00:26:00]
came from Chicago. He came from the Midwest, and

[00:26:03]
he was the chief counsel, chief minority counsel

[00:26:06]
for the Republicans. And we had a member by the

[00:26:09]
name of Ginder. And as a result of that, they came

[00:26:14]
together, they worked together. And they they they

[00:26:18]
weighed the facts and weighed the evidence. And it

[00:26:20]
was it was a it was a camaraderie. It was an

[00:26:24]
incredibly close because we literally had to live

[00:26:27]
together, almost spend time, which you normally

[00:26:30]
don't do. You don't just show up at a hearing and

[00:26:32]
then go home. We had to we had to weigh that

[00:26:35]
process continually. And you became close with

[00:26:38]
these people and you learned about about what they

[00:26:40]
went through. And my other colleagues, some of

[00:26:45]
them, especially from the South, who had a real

[00:26:48]
tough time on this issue. There was also

[00:26:51]
Republican and FBI Agent Hogan. He was an FBI

[00:26:55]
agent and he weighed the evidence and he voted. He

[00:26:59]
came. He came across. So he he voted as well. And

[00:27:03]
so the chairman pushed us in the right direction.

[00:27:08]
The the the ranking minority members were there.

[00:27:13]
And we ended up together in a way that that that

[00:27:19]
you don't forget. You sort of you sort of have

[00:27:22]
that feeling. So the committee was. Was was was a

[00:27:27]
pretty close knit, and then there were all, you

[00:27:30]
know, to show you the difference of when I came as

[00:27:34]
a member versus the previous Congress, the

[00:27:38]
chairman, I came from New York before that and he

[00:27:43]
was hard of hearing. And to show you how the

[00:27:46]
different climate was, the chairman was hard of

[00:27:49]
hearing. And when I came as a freshman

[00:27:53]
and it's still that way today, the Democrats will

[00:27:55]
sit on one side, the Republicans will sit on the

[00:27:57]
other. But I noticed that somehow they had moved

[00:28:03]
us. So the Democrats were in the place where they

[00:28:06]
would normally be and the Republicans were in the

[00:28:08]
place where they would normally be. But the

[00:28:12]
previous Congress, it was reversed. Why was it

[00:28:15]
reversed? The chairman, who was a Democrat and who

[00:28:18]
has been there for a long time, was hard of

[00:28:20]
hearing. And he wanted to have his good ear for

[00:28:25]
the Democrats and and so he wouldn't hear the

[00:28:28]
Republicans and it's you know, maybe that's just a

[00:28:32]
little incident, but it told you I let's hope

[00:28:37]
today it's not that way today, but at least it

[00:28:41]
gave you a flavor of of what we were trying to do.

[00:28:45]
We were trying to be fair. We trying to be open.

[00:28:48]
We're trying to recognize everyone. And even

[00:28:50]
though there were those on both sides, the two or

[00:28:55]
three that were already committed to impeach and

[00:28:58]
there were two or three that would not impeach no

[00:29:01]
matter what,

[00:29:04]
but. Because of what we went through and that that

[00:29:08]
whole process of which the papers will show as to

[00:29:13]
why ultimately we all came together. Anything else

[00:29:18]
you said one thought that you can look at and talk

[00:29:20]
to Jeff, but just as this played out, how about

[00:29:25]
your personal emotions? Did you go through times

[00:29:27]
or you thought, why did I why did I want to be on

[00:29:30]
this? Or did you embrace the process? Because was

[00:29:32]
obviously know there was a lot of tension. Hey,

[00:29:34]
Miss Minsky's, don't forget this. Yeah, right.

[00:29:37]
Well, I it was very emotional. It was a roller

[00:29:41]
coaster. It was a roller coaster. Like I said, I

[00:29:43]
walked in. I just wanted to get on the committee

[00:29:46]
because I was concerned about the bigness of farms

[00:29:50]
and agriculture and antitrust and all these issues.

[00:29:53]
And then, lo and behold, we're thrown into this.

[00:29:56]
We're thrown into the fire. And also you're being

[00:29:59]
watched not only by the administration, but you're

[00:30:02]
being watched in a way. And also I was emotional

[00:30:06]
because because it affected me personally. I

[00:30:09]
didn't like you know, it bothered me what I was

[00:30:12]
encountering, but yet I didn't want that to

[00:30:16]
emotionally affect my decision. It shouldn't be

[00:30:19]
just an emotional decision so that that affected

[00:30:23]
me. And then emotionally, it was hard when I would

[00:30:26]
come back to Iowa and then I would get

[00:30:30]
correspondence and letters and people would throw

[00:30:33]
stones at me and threaten me and take me aside and

[00:30:36]
say, look, Mazursky, we didn't elect you to remove

[00:30:39]
a president. You know, you're supposed to you were

[00:30:43]
supposed to you know, then they would look, we did

[00:30:47]
we didn't even know how to pronounce your name.

[00:30:49]
And so now and so it was hard for me and I would

[00:30:54]
go back and I would wonder, are we doing it? You

[00:30:56]
know, is this the right course? But yet we knew it

[00:30:59]
was the course that had to be taken. And I knew

[00:31:03]
certain constituents would would not accept it.

[00:31:08]
And I also emotionally, it was hard because we did

[00:31:12]
know that very well. It may affect our performance

[00:31:16]
because the president may take it out on different

[00:31:19]
members in some way or another. And that and that

[00:31:22]
was hard to do. Does that mean that we're going to

[00:31:25]
be audited, our tax returns are going to be

[00:31:28]
audited? Is that going to mean that if I had a

[00:31:30]
project on the Mississippi River that I wanted to

[00:31:33]
do for locks and dams and we wanted to do it now

[00:31:36]
and encourage it, that it would not see the light

[00:31:40]
of day, that that was hard. So you wondered

[00:31:44]
whether you could do your job, whether whether you

[00:31:47]
could really be the member and then communication,

[00:31:51]
you know, could you communicate with your

[00:31:53]
constituents? So it it was an emotional roller

[00:31:56]
coaster, both politically and also personally and

[00:32:01]
emotionally for me and my family going through

[00:32:05]
that period.

[00:32:08]
And. I'll never forget it.

[00:32:14]
Great, anything else that you wanted to mention

[00:32:16]
otherwise, you did terrific. Said, I think we've

[00:32:19]
got everything OK.

TRANSCRIPTION END